Comments on: A proposal to Endeavor Voyager customers http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/ Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:31:46 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8-bleeding-10187 hourly 1 By: panlibus http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-10429 panlibus Sun, 11 Mar 2007 15:00:46 +0000 http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/07/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/#comment-10429 <strong>Will Ex Libris Listen.......</strong> Will Ex Libris listen to the implicit appeal from Ross Singer in his reply to Ex Libris' Nancy Dushkin and UCLA's Andy Kohler comments to his posting 'A proposal to Endeavor Voyager customers'. Obviously relieved to hear, but disappointed to.... Will Ex Libris Listen…….

Will Ex Libris listen to the implicit appeal from Ross Singer in his reply to Ex Libris’ Nancy Dushkin and UCLA’s Andy Kohler comments to his posting ‘A proposal to Endeavor Voyager customers’. Obviously relieved to hear, but disappointed to….

]]> By: Ross http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-10038 Ross Thu, 08 Mar 2007 17:22:45 +0000 http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/07/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/#comment-10038 Nancy, it would be nice to let the Voyager community know this, because I think the popular sentiment is that we're on a dead end and we need to start thinking about alternate routes. There are a lot of rumblings and that helps feed the FUD. It seems like Ex Libris/Francisco Partners has to make a choice at some point, however, having two competing ILSes vying for the same space seems counter productive and unprofitable. Andy, I don't disagree with your points. I had figured that Bon Voyage would use Voyager's clients in the meantime. I am more concerned about working with the OPAC and patron empowerment issues (as well as NCIP type functionality - I would think this would be of value to UCLA, as well). But, really, your issues are why I figured all access would be readonly right now. Construct a framework to access the data and put in stubs for where future write access (or if Exdeavor supplied an API to work with...) would go. That way, if this thing has legs, we're ready to run. And, if Voyager lives on forever and our support contracts remain intact, we've got a really useful, easy framework to build new services with our catalog data. Nancy, it would be nice to let the Voyager community know this, because I think the popular sentiment is that we’re on a dead end and we need to start thinking about alternate routes. There are a lot of rumblings and that helps feed the FUD. It seems like Ex Libris/Francisco Partners has to make a choice at some point, however, having two competing ILSes vying for the same space seems counter productive and unprofitable.

Andy, I don’t disagree with your points. I had figured that Bon Voyage would use Voyager’s clients in the meantime. I am more concerned about working with the OPAC and patron empowerment issues (as well as NCIP type functionality - I would think this would be of value to UCLA, as well). But, really, your issues are why I figured all access would be readonly right now. Construct a framework to access the data and put in stubs for where future write access (or if Exdeavor supplied an API to work with…) would go. That way, if this thing has legs, we’re ready to run. And, if Voyager lives on forever and our support contracts remain intact, we’ve got a really useful, easy framework to build new services with our catalog data.

]]> By: Andy Kohler http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-10025 Andy Kohler Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:47:13 +0000 http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/07/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/#comment-10025 Interesting and audacious, but I don't see it as technically practical. This seems like a proposal to basically reverse-engineer the Voyager system; setting aside legal concerns, doing this safely is not simple. At UCLA we contracted for the VACS API documentation, and the interrelationships among functions can be very complex. I certainly like the idea of taking control of our own data... but figuring out all the details of how to write it safely into the Voyager schema seems the same order of magnitude as creating our own schema, free of any Ex Libris intellectual property issues. Nay-saying aside... I'm eager to see how this idea moves forward and definitely would consider participating. Interesting and audacious, but I don’t see it as technically practical. This seems like a proposal to basically reverse-engineer the Voyager system; setting aside legal concerns, doing this safely is not simple. At UCLA we contracted for the VACS API documentation, and the interrelationships among functions can be very complex.

I certainly like the idea of taking control of our own data… but figuring out all the details of how to write it safely into the Voyager schema seems the same order of magnitude as creating our own schema, free of any Ex Libris intellectual property issues.

Nay-saying aside… I’m eager to see how this idea moves forward and definitely would consider participating.

]]> By: Nancy Dushkin http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-10021 Nancy Dushkin Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:32:09 +0000 http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/07/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/#comment-10021 We were surprised to read this posting which suggests that Ex Libris or Francisco Partners wants Voyager customers to move to ALEPH. The reality is quite the opposite. Ex Libris has over a thousand happy Voyager customers, and we are actively supporting, enhancing and selling the system. We are not suggesting that now or in the future any Voyager customer migrate to ALEPH. Since the merging of Ex Libris and Endeavor two months ago, Ex Libris has more than doubled the development resources dedicated to Voyager. We will release Voyager 6.5 as planned in Q2 and are integrating Voyager with Primo and Verde. In addition, we are actively working on the development of Voyager 7.0, planned for release by the end of this year. Our product management team is already defining the requirements for future releases as well. Voyager is an integral part of the Ex Libris product suite, and our Voyager customers are extremely important to us. We will continue to support and enhance Voyager with the same level of dedication as the rest of our product suite. Nancy Dushkin Vice President of Marketing Ex Libris Group We were surprised to read this posting which suggests that Ex Libris or Francisco Partners wants Voyager customers to move to ALEPH. The reality is quite the opposite. Ex Libris has over a thousand happy Voyager customers, and we are actively supporting, enhancing and selling the system. We are not suggesting that now or in the future any Voyager customer migrate to ALEPH.

Since the merging of Ex Libris and Endeavor two months ago, Ex Libris has more than doubled the development resources dedicated to Voyager. We will release Voyager 6.5 as planned in Q2 and are integrating Voyager with Primo and Verde. In addition, we are actively working on the development of Voyager 7.0, planned for release by the end of this year. Our product management team is already defining the requirements for future releases as well.

Voyager is an integral part of the Ex Libris product suite, and our Voyager customers are extremely important to us. We will continue to support and enhance Voyager with the same level of dedication as the rest of our product suite.

Nancy Dushkin
Vice President of Marketing
Ex Libris Group

]]> By: Ross http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-9928 Ross Thu, 08 Mar 2007 03:18:10 +0000 http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/07/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/#comment-9928 Joe -- we own our data. If we own our RDBMS as well, it seems we've got a little to work with. I mean, you may be totally right, but it seems a little fishy. What if Endeavor had gone belly up and nobody bought their assets? Anyway, all Ex Libris can do is say 'no'. Then we'll worry about contract law. Rick -- it seems improbable that E.L. will open source Voyager (or Meridian or anything else they made) since I imagine <em>something</em> might potentially creep into Aleph. Regarding VACS: well, that's another approach. Of course, Voyager's middleware is so kludgy, I'm not sure that just building up anew from the database is a terribly idea. Joe — we own our data. If we own our RDBMS as well, it seems we’ve got a little to work with. I mean, you may be totally right, but it seems a little fishy. What if Endeavor had gone belly up and nobody bought their assets? Anyway, all Ex Libris can do is say ‘no’. Then we’ll worry about contract law.

Rick — it seems improbable that E.L. will open source Voyager (or Meridian or anything else they made) since I imagine something might potentially creep into Aleph. Regarding VACS: well, that’s another approach. Of course, Voyager’s middleware is so kludgy, I’m not sure that just building up anew from the database is a terribly idea.

]]> By: Rick Silterra http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-9923 Rick Silterra Thu, 08 Mar 2007 01:13:40 +0000 http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/07/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/#comment-9923 The idea that the structure of the database is proprietary is laughable - we all know what is in there, titles, and authors, and left anchored indexes that do not work very well. What Endeavor ought to do is to open source voyager; and focus their efforts on Aleph. Failing that they ought to NOW as they ought to have long ago is document the VACS protocol so we can develop alternate clients. just my yoctocents, Rick Silterra The idea that the structure of the database is proprietary
is laughable - we all know what is in there, titles, and authors,
and left anchored indexes that do not work very well.
What Endeavor ought to do is to open source voyager; and focus their
efforts on Aleph. Failing that they ought to NOW as they ought to have
long ago is document the VACS protocol so we can develop alternate clients.

just my yoctocents,
Rick Silterra

]]> By: Joe Shubitowski http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-9921 Joe Shubitowski Thu, 08 Mar 2007 01:02:28 +0000 http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/07/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/#comment-9921 I don't know if all Voy sites have similar contracts, but after rereading ours, there is no legal way we could use it after the contract was terminated. Well, at least our lawyers wouldn't let us use it with the language that is in this contract!!! There is no mention of the database schema per se, so don't know how much loophole we would have there?! It reads very much like an EULA where we only have license to use. We actually didn't buy anything nor do we own anything. We must destroy, return, blah blah, etc. all software once the agreement is terminated. I don’t know if all Voy sites have similar contracts, but after rereading ours, there is no legal way we could use it after the contract was terminated. Well, at least our lawyers wouldn’t let us use it with the language that is in this contract!!! There is no mention of the database schema per se, so don’t know how much loophole we would have there?!

It reads very much like an EULA where we only have license to use. We actually didn’t buy anything nor do we own anything. We must destroy, return, blah blah, etc. all software once the agreement is terminated.

]]> By: Ross http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-9918 Ross Thu, 08 Mar 2007 00:35:27 +0000 http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/07/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/#comment-9918 Joe, we already have access to the database schema. I wouldn't expect us to be able to distribute Bon Voyage outside of existing Voyager customers. There would, in essence, be no installations from scratch (unless approval was given from E.L., of course). Having a pretty good knowledge of Voyager's schema, there's nothing terribly groundbreaking about it. Assuming that E.L. secrets aren't exposed to the world, I don't see much that E.L. <em>could</em> do. We paid for our ILS and when we don't anymore support or upgrades, I'm pretty sure we can do whatever we want with it (besides distribute it). Joe, we already have access to the database schema. I wouldn’t expect us to be able to distribute Bon Voyage outside of existing Voyager customers. There would, in essence, be no installations from scratch (unless approval was given from E.L., of course).

Having a pretty good knowledge of Voyager’s schema, there’s nothing terribly groundbreaking about it.

Assuming that E.L. secrets aren’t exposed to the world, I don’t see much that E.L. could do. We paid for our ILS and when we don’t anymore support or upgrades, I’m pretty sure we can do whatever we want with it (besides distribute it).

]]> By: Joe Shubitowski http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-9897 Joe Shubitowski Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:33:58 +0000 http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/07/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/#comment-9897 Ross, Wouldn't E.L. consider the structure of the database as confidential IP?? Just wondering...... Ross,

Wouldn’t E.L. consider the structure of the database as confidential IP?? Just wondering……

]]> By: Richard Wallis http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/comment-page-1/#comment-9881 Richard Wallis Wed, 07 Mar 2007 18:00:52 +0000 http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/2007/03/07/a-proposal-to-endeavor-voyager-customers/#comment-9881 A brave, and amusingly named, proposal. One that makes a great deal of sense, I hope it gains support. A brave, and amusingly named, proposal.

One that makes a great deal of sense, I hope it gains support.

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